Ask Question Asked 22 days ago Active yesterday Viewed 505 times -4 5 3 Looking for a (more complex) training & transport vehicle. Found interesting HPVs. Is anything similar available somewhere OR at least some basic parts like seat, frame, etc.: https://www.tasukei.net/event/mtm05_2010.html Answer https://i.stack.imgur.com/SEY83.jpg Unfortunately web does not exist yet, but concept also answers my question: http://birdofpreybicycles.ning.com/ Almost horizontal position https://i.stack.imgur.com/NfR5g.jpg Some links on Graeme Obree from BBC, Cycling Weekly and BBC https://keyassets.timeincuk.net/inspirewp/live/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2014/01/CSP2284_Beastie_Internals.jpg Interesting bike prototype His prototype was already sold in auction. For those who tend to give stupid or "scientific" answers on complex problems found interesting reading about crank length you can read here why these studies are often useless for amateurs. alternative-drivetrainEdit tags modshareeditreopen 1undeleteflag edited yesterday asked Jul 19 at 5:34 Tom 11288 bronze badges deleted by David Richerby, Criggie♦ yesterday put on hold as unclear what you're asking by Andy P, David Richerby, ojs, Criggie♦ Aug 5 at 23:17 Please clarify your specific problem or add additional details to highlight exactly what you need. As it's currently written, it’s hard to tell exactly what you're asking. See the How to Ask page for help clarifying this question. If this question can be reworded to fit the rules in the help center, please edit the question. 6 The leg muscles are the biggest, strongest, and most enduring muscles of your body. Any effective mechanism must use them. The only other sport that uses the leg muscles plus a large number of other muscles is rowing. However, the leg muscles are effective enough to make the cardiovascular system the bottleneck, so it's not necessary to use more muscles for top performance. And the turning motion of the cranks is also quite effective. Afaik, there's no other sport that matches the endured power output of a bike rider... – cmaster Jul 19 at 6:16 2 @cmaster cross country skiing has quite similar numbers. It also involves muscles in the entire body, but mostly legs. – ojs Jul 19 at 6:34 4 Okay then, what is the actual question? You are seem to be already familiar with alternative human power mechanism and know that they are all awful in different ways. – ojs Jul 23 at 7:44 6 @Tom please ask a clear question that can be answered. This whole chat session is a bad fit for the Stack Exchange format. It feels like you're thinking out loud and canvasing the community for discussion, which doesn't mesh well with the Q&A organisation. – Criggie♦ Jul 28 at 23:50 3 Tom, your English uses non standard grammar and the stream of consciousness style is difficult to understand. It is obvious that English is not your native language, please get someone to translate. Or just stop spamming us. – ojs 2 days ago add a comment | show 28 more comments 4 Answers active oldest votes 10 1 First Question Are there any alternatives to old pedalling mechanism ? Yes there are. And the question actually lists some of them. The Wiki article lists a few more Pushing - skateboard, hobby horse, etc. Weight shifting - Trikkes etc. Paddling - water craft Rowing - water craft, rowing cycle Pushing and pulling with one's arms - wheel chair etc. Hopping - pogo stick, Aqua Hopper Hand power - hand car, handcycle etc Treadle power - treadle bicycle Second Question Are there any other alternatives better from biomechanical point of view and/or effectiveness? No. Nothing is better than pedaling. Nothing is better than a bicycle. The bicycle is a tremendously efficient means of transportation. In fact cycling is more efficient than any other method of travel--including walking! https://i.stack.imgur.com/EIwNy.gif enter image description here A comparison of the energy cost of various forms of transportation. Exploratorium.edu. The recumbent bicycle is noted as having an aerodynamic advantage. Most recumbent models also have an aerodynamic advantage; the reclined, legs-forward position of the rider’s body presents a smaller frontal profile. A recumbent holds the world speed record for a bicycle. Wikipedia Third Question Did anyone tried to build bike / HPV from scratch or majority did just copy / paste and small improvements? Are these "copy / paste and small improvements"? In no particular order and not a complete list: Pneumatic tire Chain drive Roller chain Multiple gears Wire spoke tension wheel Hand brakes "Did anyone tried to build bike / HPV from scratch..." My guess is that many people have tried a clean sheet redesign but here is one I can document. In the late 1950s, disillusioned with the design of the classic bicycle, Alex Moulton set about creating a new design. Wikipedia Thinking it Through Someone with mad math skills could quantify the factors involved but just by way of thinking it through... Looking at the human body - which muscles would you want to use to propel a HPV? Leg muscles? arm muscles? back muscles? Leg muscles are the clear winner. What motion would be most efficient for those muscles? Due to the way legs move there aren't many choices. Up and down? round and round? hopping? The beauty of the round and round motion is that it preserves momentum. Up and down comes to a stop at the top and bottom of each stroke - like a piston engine. So, round and round is the answer. Now you need to build a machine that harnesses legs in a round and round motion. What would that look like? The best way to appreciate the challenge of building something better than a bike is to do the research and sketch out a few options. The International Human Powered Vehicle Association is a place you can find people who are interested in building better HPVs. Googling "history of human powered vehicles" or "history of the bicycle" will reveal a wide range of information on a wide range of inventions with a variety of human powered mechanisms by many people over a long period of history. modshareeditundeleteflag deleted yesterday answered Jul 19 at 14:51 David D 3,42211 gold badge55 silver badges1919 bronze badges Thank for exhaustive answer, have different opinion @ some points still ;-) And copy/paste was meant in last decades - except pro's finetunning like expensive carbon, HED H3(?) wheels, etc. As owner of recumbent I know how easy it is to break frame by pedalling ex. uphill (2x? producer had to double welds and pipes on my frame), so even position and support makes big difference. At least there is lack of significant improvements worth of for amateurs. – Tom Jul 19 at 22:10 1 If you want mordern history to prove the point made by @David - Team NZ, in Americas Cup racing replaced arm powered grinders with cycles, to much protest at the advantage it gave them, being credited in part with the wins. If you follow the sport, you will know that its one where the status quo and improving on what you did last time are winning formulas. These guys would not have got to using upright bikes without trialing everything else. – mattnz Jul 20 at 2:04 Over the last decades there have been clipless pedals, threadless headsets, disc brakes, two piece cranks, aluminum and carbon fiber everywhere, etc. – ojs Jul 20 at 5:58 2 @Tom Feel free to provide you own answer with your own documentation. – David D Jul 20 at 13:23 @DavidD I'm sorry - this is a great answer to a terrible question, which I'm about to delete. So there's a chance you'll loose your points for this answer. My apologies for the impending collateral damage. – Criggie♦ yesterday add a comment 0 1 Graeme Obree was wrong with his Beastie ? https://keyassets.timeincuk.net/inspirewp/live/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2014/01/CSP2284_Beastie_Internals.jpg Interesting bike prototype Did 1st answer mean he did not beat outright world record because he did not used some mass production bike model ? https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-24015622 https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/latest-news/graeme-obrees-beastie-bike-among-many-memorabilia-auction-351518 https://www.bbc.com/news/av/technology-24031974/how-does-the-beastie-cycle-work modshareeditundeleteflag deleted by owner Jul 20 at 16:54 edited Jul 20 at 11:35 answered Jul 20 at 10:55 Tom 11288 bronze badges Isn't there problem most of us repeat advertisements without thinking? When whole world produce same bike models, it would be hard and costly to change concept. Btw modern in-line (similar to walker/runner) skaters drive similar speed like slow bicycles (14mph?) and does not seem to be exhausted much more - something wrong here if old bicycle would be best option anyone can imagine... – Tom Jul 20 at 11:10 Notice he's still pedalling, but in an aggressively aerodynamic position. O'Bree is certainly a great cyclist, not because he's fastest or most powerful, but figures out how to get the most use out of the power he can generate. – Criggie♦ Jul 20 at 12:27 Did you mean to add this to your question? It doesn't really answer the question either. – Criggie♦ Jul 20 at 12:27 add a comment 1 1 Answering the added question: It seems that Obree was indeed wrong. All recent human powered one hour records have been set with enclosed recumbent bicycles with with rotating cranks and rider resting on their back. I agree that Obree has played a significant role in development of aerodynamic bikes, but this one is not the most successful design. The current hour record was set with rider facing backwards, if that counts as radical innovation. I believe that vision and handling difficulties are the main reason why this setup is not more common. modshareeditundeleteflag deleted yesterday answered Jul 20 at 18:19 ojs 13k22 gold badges2323 silver badges4646 bronze badges But in fact record is not main interest. When you ride on bike say 1 hour a bit faster and then it is hard to walk for some time, it just mean it has bad ergonomics (concept). Also records are a bit individual - everyone is original, so you cannot tell in theory in case you would change drivers and HPVs, their record positions will remain same. Exact comparision would be wind tunnel or CFD and adjustment by force/power drivers can generate - not sure if 2 drivers can use exactly same (average) force for a period of time (power) even on same HPV at same time. – Tom Jul 22 at 6:51 1 I don't really understand. Are you trying to tell that the pedal linkage from Beastie is better because Obree did not manage to produce record power using it and nobody else wants to use it? – ojs Jul 22 at 8:46 It is not topic of original question and there is no evidence about real power used - in case you put electric motor inside, let it consume or generate same force/power, you can be sure which is better - there is food, driver condition, place, temperature, etc. - lot of variables, which are always original and can affect final result, so hard to compare HPVs by particular records. Anyway with its fairing this one is useless for common cyclist - noone want few people to help him get in, start, etc. but design under fairing looks interesting - very close to walk or run. – Tom Jul 22 at 9:10 So, are you convinced that reciprocating pedaling motion is more efficient than circular and want someone to do the homework for you? This gets actually interesting. I checked the book Bicycling Science and it doesn't mention any tests with this crankshaft style setup. The more common lever-driven treadle bicycle gets a list of drawbacks but no power output tests. Perhaps you could build a test setup and do some actual measurements. – ojs Jul 22 at 11:24 The point is most important muscles used for pedalling are a bit different from those used during walk or run, so you can have excellent bike condition, but walk or run hard... You can pedall effectivelly only small part of the circle and have to think about the rest - pickup back leg, etc. Without SPDs, etc. it is even more complicated. Similar like switch to StreetStrider you have to train a bit as your common bike condition does not help enough. – Tom Jul 22 at 11:52 add a comment | show 1 more comment -1 1 Tested own improvement today - suppose original, from short test seems interesting: https://i.stack.imgur.com/wKVfE.jpg Photo from test video Point is gums helping return knees - there is long angle of resistance and short support area, on easy gear almost no need to push down. Another point is it is hard to change pedalling style even it is possible - probably it is "hardcoded" like walking style original as fingerprint, so in case you want to change and do not want to focus on new style too much, there is probably only way to use some helper or different construction of bicycle. Consulted it with friend physiotherapist, he was interested too. Costs >$2 - 2x 2m gums from car parts shop (free length was much shorter - 1m?). Both gums are separate => only front knee tighten up&front. modshareeditundeleteflag deleted by owner Jul 30 at 6:54 answered Jul 28 at 21:29 Tom 11288 bronze badges add a comment Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged alternative-drivetrain or ask your own question.